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Haute Horlogerie Discussion

This is the place to learn all about watches and how they tick. Share your knowledge and how-tos with the rest of the class.
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sistem_32
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Long power reserves

Post by sistem_32 »

Over in the news thread yinzburgher mentioned the first round of announcements at SIHH. One of those was a very interesting Vacheron Constantin which allows the user to switch between a 5Hz mode for regular wear and a 1.5Hz mode, which extends its power reserve to "at least 65 days," especially impressive considering it only has one barrel. I would like to point out that this functionality is much the same as the "sleep mode" of the Ressence Type 2, and without the electronics. Here's a detailed article about it from Hodinkee.

The only other watch I know of with a power reserve even beginning to rival that of the VC is the Hublot MP-05 LaFerrari Aperta (yes, a Ferrari watch). It achieves a power reserve of about 50 days by stacking eleven barrels on top of each other.
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I wonder how long it would last with VC's new technology. Assuming the rate is 65 days to one barrel, as it is in the actual VC, it would last a full 455 days!

Edit: I miscounted the number of barrels on the Hublot; originally I thought there were seven. Here's a bonus article from ABTW about it.
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"Gaming" watches

Post by sistem_32 »

A surprising number of brands produce watches inspired by casino games, and many of them display surprising and impressive innovation.

The most hardcore watches are those produced by Christophe Claret. They have three versions: poker, baccarat, and blackjack. The watches "deal" cards on demand, which are displayed in windows on the dials, allowing the owner (and his friends) to actually play the game on them! They also have roulette wheels for winding rotors and miniature dice inside one of their pushers.
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Anderson Geneve take a more artistic approach in their Montre à Tact line. Their "Poker" model is inspired by the painting “A Bold Bluff” by Cassius Marcellus Coolidge, which depicts five rather posh looking dogs sitting around a poker table, smoking cigars. The watch uses two windows, one on the edge of the case, to tell the time, leaving the dial mostly empty for the painting.
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Franck Muller and, interestingly, Bell & Ross also produce roulette themed watches. Unfortunately, B&R's watch itself isn't actually very interesting, but the Franck Muller deserves a comment. It has a third central hand which, on command, flies around a painted on "wheel," eventually settling on a random number. It's the least intrusive complication of any of them, and in my opinion the most elegant.
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H. Moser Swiss Alp Watch Minute Repeater Concept Black

Post by sistem_32 »

I know I've already posted about the H. Moser & Cie. Swiss Alp Watch, but I wanted to share this new SIHH release. The dial of the HMSAWMRCB is entirely black (entirely; that means no hands), except for a circular hole for viewing the motion of its tourbillon. Instead of hands, the watch is equipped with a minute repeater.
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It evokes a state of blindness. You are aware of the passage of time, through the motion of the tourbillon, but where normally there's an exact, regulated display there is now only darkness. It forces you to stop, consciously, and listen. It's more organic, and therefore more emotional.

I love it. An absolute grail, even more completely unattainable than usual, being a unique piece. Here's a good write-up with some more pictures from Hodinkee.
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Re: H. Moser Swiss Alp Watch Minute Repeater Concept Black

Post by yinzburgher »

sistem_32 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:18 pm I know I've already posted about the H. Moser & Cie. Swiss Alp Watch, but I wanted to share this new SIHH release. The dial of the HMSAWMRCB is entirely black (entirely; that means no hands), except for a circular hole for viewing the motion of its tourbillon. Instead of hands, the watch is equipped with a minute repeater.
Image
It evokes a state of blindness. You are aware of the passage of time, through the motion of the tourbillon, but where normally there's an exact, regulated display there is now only darkness. It forces you to stop, consciously, and listen. It's more organic, and therefore more emotional.

I love it. An absolute grail, even more completely unattainable than usual, being a unique piece. Here's a good write-up with some more pictures from Hodinkee.
So this must be the watch that all the girls at work have been wearing. Next time I see it I'll tell them, "OMG, that watch is so Haute!" But in all seriousness, H. Moser & Cie have become the jesters of the world of Haute Horlogerie. Their watches are starting to make me think of the Naked Gun movie series (that is if Leslie Nielsen also made Academy Award winning films).
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Naissance d'une Montre

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"Le Garde Temps – Naissance d'une Montre" is the name of an ongoing project started back in 2006 by the Time Æon Foundation to preserve the art of producing watches by hand. It started with a collaboration between Greubel Forsey and Philippe Dufour to train an apprentice, Michel Boulanger, and ultimately produce ten entirely watches entirely made and finished by hand. The first watch was completed in 2016 and sold at auction for about $1.5 million. Here's a picture of the unfinished movement.
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At second Naissance d'une Montre timepiece was unveiled at this year's SIHH, in collaboration with a similar project started by a pair of Urwerk watchmakers, called "Oscillon."
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The production of a third timepiece was also announced at SIHH, in collaboration with Ferdinand Berthoud. This watch will feature an entirely hand-made fusee and chain. Several other prominent watchmakers are also members of the Time Æon Foundation, including Dominique Renaud, inventor of the "blade resonator" on page one, and Vianney Halter, the watchmaker behind the Deep Space Tourbillon on the same page. Here's an article from Hodinkee about the first watch, here's a good video report on the same subject, and here's an article about the Time Æon Foundation.
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F. P. Journe Sonnerie Souveraine

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The F. P. Journe Sonnerie Souveraine is one of the very few watches featuring a grande et petit sonnerie. Before this can be discussed, I must clear up a few terms. Hodinkee has defined them as well as I can hope to, so I'll just quote them:
...for anyone that doesn't know what a sonnerie is, it is a watch with an active striking mechanism that chimes the quarters and hours without activation from the user. A grande sonnerie strikes the hours and the quarters each quarter....A petite sonnerie would strike only the quarters...
A grande et petit sonnerie complication allows the user to switch between a grande and a petit sonnerie at will. It's a very rare complication indeed, and apparently a fairly young one. I suppose the reason it was only built recently is that it's supremely impractical; there may be a reason for a petit sonnerie, or a grand sonnerie, but there is no practical reason whatsoever for a grande et petit sonnerie. The F. P. Journe Sonnerie Souveraine is even more impractical: it also includes a minute repeater and a silent mode for the sonnerie. It is, in fact, F. P. Journe's most complicated watch. It was released back in 2006, fully designed and constructed ("Invenit et Fecit") by François-Paul Journe himself.
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Fortunately for everybody, it has a transparent case-back, displaying the incredible motions of the sonnerie and minute repeater. It looks practically organic. Here's a video animating the movement (sorry for the poor quality). Here's an exceptional write-up by Hodinkee.
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De Bethune Dream Watch

Post by sistem_32 »

De Bethune seems to be surprisingly obscure considering their accomplishments. They have developed numerous new balance wheels, a new type of chronograph mechanism (here's a video concerning that), and produced numerous watches worthy of the adjective "iconic." They have a very unique style of design, featuring the likes of a spherical moonphase and sapphire hands. One of my favorite watches of theirs is their Dream Watch 5.
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It makes me think of Cadillacs from the 60s, and I suppose it's made with a similar attitude. Surprisingly for its rather bizarre shape, it wears exceptionally well. There's also a pièce unique version with a case made of meteorite; it's a very striking aesthetic indeed.
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The Dream Watch 5 was, obviously, succeeded by several other models. One of them was, in fact, built into a phone case. The unfortunate effect of such an object (aside from its inherent opulence and stupidity) is that it is only compatible with a certain model of phone. This means that, although the clock itself is a timeless mechanism, it is bound to a device sure to be outdated in just a few years. The owner then faces an unpleasant conundrum: give up his (very expensive) clock, or continue using the phone even as it becomes vastly outdated and insecure? He might at that point reflect that, although it isn't hip or high-tech, a traditional wristwatch would have been a much more prudent choice.
Last edited by sistem_32 on Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Micro-rotor

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The micro-rotor isn't exactly haute horlogerie, but it isn't often seen outside of high end pieces, so I thought it merited some discussion. It was patented by Universal Genève back in 1955 to allow for thinner movements. A traditional rotor, of course, adds a few millimeters of thickness to the entire movement, while a micro-rotor, being set into the movement, doesn't increase the thickness at all, the drawback being considerably less space in the movement for the gear train.

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Unsurprisingly, then, many of the record thinnest watches use micro-rotors; the Piaget Altiplano, the Bulgari Octo Finissimo, the Patek Golden Ellipse. Other brands also use it to just keep their proportions in check, like Romain Gauthier's Insight Micro-Rotors or the Speake-Marin One & Two. Also unsurprisingly, Rolex has never hopped on the train.

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For there technically curious, the Naked Watchmaker has deconstructions of a Parmigiani Fleurier micro-rotor here and a Vaucher one here. Here's a decent article about the history of the complication.
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Bulgari Octo Finissimo

Post by sistem_32 »

I mentioned Bulgari's Octo Finissimo line in my last post, and as it's pretty interesting I thought I'd elaborate. While Bulgari is mostly a fashion brand, and produces some rather hideous fashion watches, they do have some proper horological chops. The Octo Finissimo line contains some of the thinnest watches in the world. For example: the Octo Finissimo Tourbillon, the movement of which measures in at less than two millimeters thick. The entire watch is only about four millimeters thick.
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Pretty wild, and wildly impressive. Interestingly, the tourbillon model is actually thinner than some of their standard three-hander models, which come in at over five millimeters thick. I expect that's because the three-handers are automatic, so they have to make room for the rotor (even though it is a micro-rotor).
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I don't often mention price, as I think it's generally only a distraction from the horology, but I was impressed to see that the Octo Finissimo three-hander, which, as I said, is only five millimeters thick, costs only $12,800. For such a novelty, especially from a brand leaning into fashion territory, I would have expected a much more inflated price.

Here's a hands-on article from Hodinkee about the Octo Finissimo Tourbillon, containing many interesting pictures.
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Re: The micro-rotor

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sistem_32 wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:29 pmUnsurprisingly, Rolex has never hopped on the train.
I'd be interested in what you have to say regarding Rolex when it comes to haute horology. Are they involved in any endeavors of high watchmaking? Were they ever? I'm pretty sure I remember seeing or hearing about a split-seconds chronograph from way back. I have no idea whether that's actually consider HH but I certainly can't think of anything modern that even comes close.

Also, I keep thinking about the Vacheron Constantin with the optional "sleep mode" or power-saving super low beat rate that you touched on and that I read about in SIHH coverage. On one hand it's a marvel to me but on the other I just can't believe it hasn't been done before. Most of the crazy new complications don't serve any great utility. It's ultra complicated watchmaking for the sake of it. And for show, and achievement, and prestige, and wonder. It's nothing we need. But the new VC complication serves such a practical purpose. Previous generations certainly could have been getting great use out of it for these past years. Maybe it was never pursued because in past decades even the most fortunate people owned only one or two watches and rarely were they annual or perpetual calendars. So the same watch was always on your wrist or in your pocket and rarely needed to be reset. Regardless it's a useful feature and I read that VC is hoping to incorporate it into future watches.

Lastly, I really enjoy all your posts and look forward to them. It's obvious that serious time and effort go into them and I appreciate all the great pictures and links you add for further reading. In past years I never would have read an entire Hodinkee or Monochrome article concerning haute horology but these posts have led me to doing so a few times. Thanks.
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Re: The micro-rotor

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yinzburgher wrote:
sistem_32 wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:29 pmUnsurprisingly, Rolex has never hopped on the train.
I'd be interested in what you have to say regarding Rolex when it comes to haute horology. Are they involved in any endeavors of high watchmaking? Were they ever? I'm pretty sure I remember seeing or hearing about a split-seconds chronograph from way back. I have no idea whether that's actually consider HH but I certainly can't think of anything modern that even comes close.

Also, I keep thinking about the Vacheron Constantin with the optional "sleep mode" or power-saving super low beat rate that you touched on and that I read about in SIHH coverage. On one hand it's a marvel to me but on the other I just can't believe it hasn't been done before. Most of the crazy new complications don't serve any great utility. It's ultra complicated watchmaking for the sake of it. And for show, and achievement, and prestige, and wonder. It's nothing we need. But the new VC complication serves such a practical purpose. Previous generations certainly could have been getting great use out of it for these past years. Maybe it was never pursued because in past decades even the most fortunate people owned only one or two watches and rarely were they annual or perpetual calendars. So the same watch was always on your wrist or in your pocket and rarely needed to be reset. Regardless it's a useful feature and I read that VC is hoping to incorporate it into future watches.

Lastly, I really enjoy all your posts and look forward to them. It's obvious that serious time and effort go into them and I appreciate all the great pictures and links you add for further reading. In past years I never would have read an entire Hodinkee or Monochrome article concerning haute horology but these posts have led me to doing so a few times. Thanks.
X2. I will just piggyback your post as you covered my sentiments quite well. I don't want OP to think that Nobody is appreciating them. It's a side of the watch world I never looked at before since it is out of my price range. Now I realize I have been missing out as this thread is fascinating! Thanks for all the effort put into the posts, I truly enjoy reading each and every one of them. You have opened my eyes to a whole new world. If only I could open my wallet that wide!!

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Re: The micro-rotor

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yinzburgher wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:18 pm I'd be interested in what you have to say regarding Rolex when it comes to haute horology. Are they involved in any endeavors of high watchmaking? Were they ever? I'm pretty sure I remember seeing or hearing about a split-seconds chronograph from way back. I have no idea whether that's actually consider HH but I certainly can't think of anything modern that even comes close.
I had never heard of the split-seconds chronograph before, that's very interesting. The only other Rolexes with interesting/unusual complications I'm aware of are the Tru-Beat, which had deadbeat seconds and was produced for only a very short time (interesting article here), and, of course, the Yachtmaster. I think that Rolex has never dabbled in haute horlogerie because most of their lines are founded in practicality. The GMT-Master was issued to Pan Am pilots, the Explorer was designed based on the feedback of explorers, etc. In that sphere, robustness and reliability are much more important than being able to chime the time or tell the date until the year 3000. There are a few holes in that theory: first, that Rolex also has the Datejust, Cellini, etc. lines that simply serve as gentlemen's watches. And, indeed, a few more complications are visible in those lines: the Cellini has occasionally featured a moonphase and the Sky-Dweller has its interesting GMT complication. A more extreme example is the Bao Dai, which is equipped with a calendar and moonphase (if you haven't heard of the Bao Dai, here's an article from Phillips and here's one from Hodinkee). None of these, however, really qualify as haute horlogerie, and the Sky-Dweller's GMT is quite as practical for the traveling businessman as the GMT-Master's is for pilots. Therefore, I maintain that Rolex's brand identity revolves more around utility and good looks than show-offish complication for its own sake. The second issue with my theory is that there is certainly a much greater proportion of Rolex owners who aren't professionals than those who are. This one is harder to answer. I think the novelty of a professional watch is enough to attract many non-professionals, as evidenced by the success of the Milgauss. I imagine there are only a handful of people in the world who use the Milgauss practically in a lab, but many thousands of people who couldn't care less about magnetic radiation and who wear it casually day to day. Perhaps the horology enthusiasts are content to get their haute horlogerie fix through the likes of the "holy trinity" (Patek, AP and VC) and appreciate the Rolex as a practical, honest man's watch. I honestly don't know how the community would react if Rolex announced a minute repeater or the like: I expect the pushback against such a radical change in their brand identity would outweigh the appreciation of the haute horlogerie community.

yinzburgher wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:18 pm Also, I keep thinking about the Vacheron Constantin with the optional "sleep mode" or power-saving super low beat rate that you touched on and that I read about in SIHH coverage. On one hand it's a marvel to me but on the other I just can't believe it hasn't been done before. Most of the crazy new complications don't serve any great utility. It's ultra complicated watchmaking for the sake of it. And for show, and achievement, and prestige, and wonder. It's nothing we need. But the new VC complication serves such a practical purpose. Previous generations certainly could have been getting great use out of it for these past years. Maybe it was never pursued because in past decades even the most fortunate people owned only one or two watches and rarely were they annual or perpetual calendars. So the same watch was always on your wrist or in your pocket and rarely needed to be reset. Regardless it's a useful feature and I read that VC is hoping to incorporate it into future watches.
I feel the same way about VC's new complication. It seems so practical and simple (self-evident, anyway) that it's surprising it was never struck upon earlier. I almost feel skeptical, expecting it to be unoriginal or some sort of gimmick. As far as I can see though, it's entirely original. There is one catch that I haven't heard too much talk about: the watch isn't designed to be used in "standby mode" while it's on the wrist. VC says it's intended to be switched to standby mode only when it's laid aside in a safe or something, at which time it should be laid flat, to prevent distortion of the time. If the watch were automatic, the same effect could be created by simply putting it on a watch winder. So it doesn't provide the owner with 65 days of use, it simply keeps them from having to set the perpetual calendar after laying the watch aside for a while. With that in mind, I don't really see the use of the complication in an automatic watch or in a less complicated watch. It's still very innovative and interesting though, and I'm looking forward to its continued development. Here's a good video about it by TheWATCHES.tv.

yinzburgher wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:18 pm Lastly, I really enjoy all your posts and look forward to them. It's obvious that serious time and effort go into them and I appreciate all the great pictures and links you add for further reading. In past years I never would have read an entire Hodinkee or Monochrome article concerning haute horology but these posts have led me to doing so a few times. Thanks.
I'm glad you're enjoying my posts, and same to Dub Rubb! Not many hobbies have as many facets are horology, so I'm glad to shed more light on one of them.
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Re: The micro-rotor

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sistem_32 wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:29 pm The micro-rotor isn't exactly haute horlogerie, but it isn't often seen outside of high end pieces, so I thought it merited some discussion. It was patented by Universal Genève back in 1955 to allow for thinner movements. A traditional rotor, of course, adds a few millimeters of thickness to the entire movement, while a micro-rotor, being set into the movement, doesn't increase the thickness at all, the drawback being considerably less space in the movement for the gear train.
Image
Unsurprisingly, then, many of the record thinnest watches use micro-rotors; the Piaget Altiplano, the Bulgari Octo Finissimo, the Patek Golden Ellipse. Other brands also use it to just keep their proportions in check, like Romain Gauthier's Insight Micro-Rotors or the Speake-Marin One & Two. Unsurprisingly, Rolex has never hopped on the train.
Image
For there technically curious, the Naked Watchmaker has deconstructions of a Parmigiani Fleurier micro-rotor here and a Vaucher one here. Here's a decent article about the history of the complication.
How does Buren fit into microrotor history?
I know Hamilton acquired Buren for their microrotor movement, which eventually led to their move to Switzerland and their own acquisition.
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British Horological Institute DLCs

Post by sistem_32 »

Yesterday I was browsing the British Horological Institute's website and found something interesting, if you're interested in learning more about the technical aspects of horology. The BHI offers regular courses in clockmaking and watchmaking covering subjects from basic principles and hand skills to fabrication and finishing. Those courses are held in their headquarters, Upton Hall, in the UK, so they're obviously not feasible for American enthusiasts (which, I assume, most of us are). However, they also offer what they call "Distance Learning Courses," which are conducted online. There's a "technician grade" and a "combined intermediate and final grade." The technician grade appears to be quite enough instruction to equip the average enthusiast to take care of his collection. It's composed of twelve lessons, each designed to be completed over the course of a month. Here's the DLC website, which offers a download for the first lesson (about 130 pages) for free. I haven't read all of it, but I've enjoyed it so far, so I recommend you take a look.

I know this thread isn't really the place for this, but I didn't see any better place. Maybe a thread dedicated to horological education would be a good idea?
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Re: The micro-rotor

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TheJohnP wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:38 pm How does Buren fit into microrotor history?
I know Hamilton acquired Buren for their microrotor movement, which eventually led to their move to Switzerland and their own acquisition.
I'm afraid that means you know more than I do! I know next to nothing about Buren, but that's a very interesting fact. I'll have to learn more.
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